Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
General Chat
 1CMM Forums : Public Forums : General Chat
Message Icon Topic: Genderplay Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
Isabel
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 15/August/2006
Location: Christmas Island
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 61
Quote Isabel Replybullet Topic: Genderplay
    Posted: 16/September/2006 at 10:09pm

Today I came across a player in Planetside with a female avatar and a female name. When i talked to this player however it was clear he was anything but female. So out of couriousity I asked him why he played a female avatar with a female name.

After his answer which I won't mention here I searched some things online and came across a couple of articles online that dealt with the topic of girls playing games and genderplay.
 
As a woman who plays video games, I've had to think about gender in videogames, because it's so obvious that I'm playing in a boys' world.
 
This is especially true where everything from the environment (the marketing, the merchandising, the image of the industry) to the peripherals (the laughably phallic joystick, the original Xbox controllers which are way too big for my hands) are male-friendly. The attitude seems to be, "Maybe some women play our games, but we don't really know, and frankly, we don't care."

When designing characters, it's important to keep in mind the tension between identification and alienation, because the player is both actor and spectator. This is a good tension, it drives a lot of gameplay and innovation. Without identification, you create a game which has little emotional impact, little drama. That's okay in a characterless game like Tetris, but in games with characters, the characters should probably function as vehicles for something greater. Similarily, you need to allow some players some room for a certain amount of alienation. You want to preserve player identity. How many boys would have played Tomb Raider if they really felt that they were somehow taking on a feminine role? Maintaining distance is a way of being able to play characters who are not you, and being able to inhabit that genderspace comfortably, without the risk of a split personality.

The issue of alienation/identification intensifies, I would argue, in an online multiplayer setting, because while in a single-player game you are free to experiment with multiple characters in private, in a multiplayer environment, the way others react to you is through your avatar. Therefore some people either take great pains to distance themselves from the avatar, or conversely, create avatars with which they identify very closely. I think these behaviors lead to some very interesting gender play in online environments.

I'm using the somewhat clumsy term "genderspace" because "gender" connotes an either-or, black and white proposition, and I think that we often see in games a more fluid range of gender construction, within prescribed limits. The way gender is programmed, incorporated, and manipulated describes a "gender space" - it defines a range for gendered experiences in four ways:

1. The environment around the character outside of the game: the marketing, the merchandising, the advertising. The image of the character, and how that character is described. The iconic legacy of that character, apart from the actual character as a function of gameplay.

2. The aesthetics of the character in the game. The character's appearance, movements, actions, voice, characteristics.

3. The programmatic aspects of the character in the game. The character's choices, other character's reactions, the encoded abilities and biases.

4. Character as avatar in a multiplayer environment - a special category: how other characters played by other people react to your character, and how you choose to interact with others.

A great example of failure in the marketing environment around a character is the Tomb Raider series - games which should have been breakthrough girl games.

I never played this game. It looked fun, and I was excited about having a female protagonist. Outside of fighting games there hadn't been a whole lot of games starring strong women. But frankly, the way this game was marketed and talked about totally turned me off. It was immediately clear to me that I wasn't supposed to identify with her. In fact it seemed to go out of its way to assure young teenage boys that they shouldn't identify with her, they should just ogle her.
 
It's not the fault of the packaging. Okay, so her breasts are lethal weapons, sure. But I like the cover art. It shows that she's strong, she's tough, she's an adventurer, she's solo - she doesn't need a man! She *pwns* with those guns, and she knows how to use them. What's not to like?

But the hype surrounding Lara Croft was gross. The hype undercut her image as strong smart archeologist. The hype made her into a sex kitten. Where are her guns now? I rather think it demonstrates how immature gaming culture still was then, and is now.

The reviews and previews obsessively focused on the male gaze traversing her body more than the gameplay. That turned me off immediately. She's just a toy, to be played with, manipulated in an environement, not an avatar to identify with, a personality to inhabit. The message wasn't, "Hey, girls, an empowered woman to play in a game!" but rather, "Hey, boys, check out this chick's boobs while you lead her around a dungeon!" I consider this the great wasted potential of Lara Croft to transform the videogame cultural landscape.

Highly sexualized characters are not immediately a turnoff for females, though. It depends entirely on the context. For example, the notorious DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball was shocking when I heard about it. I thought, "What the hell is this game?"

But you know, it's an absolutely gorgeous game. It does a marvelous job of articulating characters. Their movements are fluid and beautiful. And it's totally transparent! It's a pin-up game - you can't argue with that. And as a pin-up game, it's an outstanding success. I've never played it, and I don't think it's very interesting to other women, but it's an honest game and I don't feel offended by it. It's silly, it's like a beach-bunny movie, a "men's magazine". The domain is explicitly for men, and that's okay. Nothing's wrong with it, even if there's nothing compelling to a female audience, either.

But lets place fact where it coincides with interest. Game Developers have been asking themselves for years the question of "How do we make females interested in our games?" Have you noticed all game avatars are exaggerated? All males are bulky muscular hunks while all females are supermodel material. While that may appeal to males I think it's a false pretence for a female. I personally want character customization. If I had the chance I'd play a character that closely resembled me 100% of the time. A somewhat petite, brunette without looking like I'm on my last life because I never eat complex.
 
In my opinion the concept of Genderplay is that a male will play any avatar or gender while a female really won't play anything but another female -arguably. I know I wouldn't play a male as I just don't feel comfortable doing it. But I also know that when I see a female avatar with a female name I will automatically assume the player behind that character is also a female whereas males are more skeptical. Point proven when you first saw "Isabel" running around your screen. Did you think female, or "mangina"?
 
What do you guys think of males playing female avatars? I know some of you do, why exactly? The entire topic of males/females and games interests me.
Sometimes it takes a woman
IP IP Logged
[Hoe]
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 19/March/2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Quote [Hoe] Replybullet Posted: 16/September/2006 at 10:45pm

I play alot of female avatars in games for 2 reasons. Id rather stare at a female in a game if im gonna play it for hours and females are always slimmer than males which gives the sleek look I prefer. When I play mech games I always go for the fast and light armor versus the heavy tanks, when I play games like Street Fighter I play the females becuse they are quick. I know there are no speed differences, but somehow I always feel like Hoe (female) is a quicker avater than Mogg (male). I did choose the asian avatar though out of personal preference.

As far as the name Hoe, it sounded like a good name to get to people when I killed them. I cant tell you how many "f**king Hoe" tells I get. To my suprise though, I cant tell you how many people assume Im a girl and send me some weird tells and then tk me when I tell the sick f**k im not a girl. It really gave me a wierd view of what some guys will randomly say to a girl in a video game.
IP IP Logged
Jbanicar
Officer
Officer
Avatar

Joined: 24/June/2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
Quote Jbanicar Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 1:22am
I know some people play female avatars in Planetside, because they appear smaller, harder to see, and I think there was a belief at some point, that they were even harder to it  (just stating).

When I saw your name running around,  I didn't really think anything, in part because  I don't think it is so generised; personal menality affects a lot of how you see things.  I do remember, however, people saying over TS, "Is it really a girl?"  I guess this was asked, because there are only a few females who actually play/played Planetside, not because of the small percentage of females playing games in general.

I guess the point is... the large majority of people play games to let go and act in a manner that they don't get to act out in public, joke about things with understanding friends, and so on.  If you were going to be imature in a given context, wouldn't games be that medium? 

But you have to ask yourself, does this go both ways? if you have a smaller audience to compare to a larger one, are the conclusions that you draw representative of the real gender differences?  If it was 50/50 male/female, then what would be the more mergent differences? 

But in the end, regardless of gender or which type of media (games/movies/shows/books/music/etc.), you will always find the same thing to be true: good people, smart intelligent, funny, wise, cultural, oppen minded, etc will always be hard to find.  It's the same reason why you have to date 10 "so/so" people  to find the one person worth staying with.  Ya know? 

In life there's always a majority and if you want to get to the minority (in this case being the non-offensive male tendencies/games/movies/outfits), then you'll always have to search harder to find it.

My Planetside characters are all males but it's mainly because I like the way that the armor/gear looks on a male character, as opposed to a female one.  The female characters always look unbalanced to me: the gun being bigger than the avatar for example... just look fake (for a video game???).  So for me, it's not a sensitive issue of "I dont have breasts therefore I dont choose that avatar" it's just a gameplay thing, and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable playing as a female character, either.


IP IP Logged
Fidelio
Admin Group
Admin Group

Forum Whore

Joined: 12/June/2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 987
Quote Fidelio Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 1:24am
like hoe stated, for me it's nothing complicated. female chars are better to stare at, and slimmer silhouettes are harder to see, thus harder to shoot.

as for avatars being exagerated, i don't have a problem with it. america is too androgenous already without adding it to our games.

as for the industry making games for multigender audiences, well it's the age old question; which came first, the chicken or the egg? girls will buy more games when more games are aimed at girls, but girls won't buy more games until there's more games aimed at girls. the discussion on why the industry has developed to it's current state and where it's headed in the future as it relates to gender is too lengthy with too many convolutions that i don't care to endeavor to explain my thoughts on some forums but i will say this; i don't think one gender is more attracted to interactive entertainment than the other, nor would be the case for passive entertainmet.
IP IP Logged
Verdant Force
Forum Whore
Forum Whore


Joined: 08/July/2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1170
Quote Verdant Force Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 1:48am
i often play with a girl on games, she completly disagree's with you.
 
to quote her "Why would you play a game where your charecter is ugly?"
she loves the latest tomb raider game, she feels it is verry empowering.
ive never really played a chick charecter instaid of a guy, it dosent matter really to me tho. its all the same at the other end of the barrel.
also, always assume evrebody in a game is a guy. and if you get them on TS and it sounds like a chick, its probably an 9 year old kid from england.
 
a while ago, i was on Xbox live, and i came into this room where two others where alraidy there, so we start the race and this guy start treing to hit on the other player, complimenting their driving skills and what not. and the SECOND the other player start to talk, i notice a high-pitched squeeky voice. and i start laughing so hard i fall of my chair, the guy asks why im laughing.
 
i ask " hey, kid are you an 9 year old from England?"
he says " Yeah! how did you know?"
the other player disconected immediatly :P
 
 
 
but yeah, i have seen the way men treat women in video games, it is really disgusting. i treat them indifrently, but from what i have seen, they can all be catagorized in 3 groops when it comes down to how they treat them.
 
1. probably the most common type, they treat women like dirt, saying they shouldent play video games and so on.
 
2. they make evre attemp to pick up the girl, annoying her to hell and back
 
3. they pretend not to want to pick up the girl, and defend her from the first two kinds of guys. always making sure to try and pick up the girl for himself, without being so open about it.
 
 
 
i can see why women dont play video games verry much, with the combination of these 3 kinds of people, it tends to be an incredibly frustating experiance for them.
i know this because i often watch my little sister playing WoW or other online games, and some of the tells she gets are just abseloutly infuriating, i dont know how she can deal with these people, i would log off and never play again.
 
in most games, she has resorted to using a male charecter, with a male name, so she dosent get harrased.
IP IP Logged
Jbanicar
Officer
Officer
Avatar

Joined: 24/June/2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
Quote Jbanicar Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 2:41am
You shouldn't catgoize people into 3 groups as if it were fact, because certainly you are saying that you aren't apart of those groups, but everyone else seems to be, based off what you see from your sister playing.  You limit your thinking to 3 catagories if you base everything after that on just those 3, and leave yourself open to critiziing everyone else except the people you know or just yourself.

I don't think whether a JH if the size of a female avatar's body, has anything to do with the current state of America, lol.  It just looks silly, but I guess that's ok; it's a game! not a reflection on society (so are Vanu the nerds for example?).
IP IP Logged
Tybox
Forum Whore
Forum Whore
Avatar

Joined: 10/August/2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1398
Quote Tybox Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 2:42am
Gamer girls ftw.
IP IP Logged
Verdant Force
Forum Whore
Forum Whore


Joined: 08/July/2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1170
Quote Verdant Force Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 3:04am

Aye, sorry Jban, i meant there are 3 catagory's of guys that anoy the crap out of my sister, and probably most other women :) sorry if i didient make that clear. 4th groop being 'indifrent'... i really did not think it needed mentioning.

IP IP Logged
Isabel
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 15/August/2006
Location: Christmas Island
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 61
Quote Isabel Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 3:39am

To be honest I haven't played video games for very long. I started off by playing The Sims Online but Jennifer has been playing online games since StarCraft and Battlenet times. So I asked her about this and our views are pretty simular with some minor contrast feelings.

In Planetside, I've gotten tells asking me if I was a female. I used to be open about it and just say yes. The following resulting comments usually led to the questioning party being placed on my ignore list for all of time. I won't mention any names but the biggest one's I get are the ones that don't believe it and then the ones that believe but, but say things like "Shouldn't you be out painting your nails" or one of my most hated, "So you're about 600 pounds then?" As though suddenly gender means that I am somehow less of a person or an unreal entity.
 
Today I got a tell asking if I cyber from some name I had never heard of. I joked around with it and just responded sarcastically but I guess somewhere deep down it does bother me. The statement of "It's just a game" can be said and trust in me when I say I tell myself that phrase countless times, but there are some things that hurt regardless of how or where it was implimented.
 
Jennifer said her worst experience was on Battle.Net in the game called Diablo II. It got to the point where she adopted the /DND (Do Not Disturb) command which blocks all incoming messages from being recieved.. ie.. tells will not go through to the player. There have been many times that I wished that such a command existed in this game and I'm not sure if you have ever noticed, but on TS my settings will not allow someone to Whisper to me because of something someone said a while ago.
 
Some months ago Jennifer brought in a new girl to the planetside community. Her name, Nicole. Nicole played planetside for about 3 weeks and then quit. Why? Because of remarks made by the idiots that unfortunately cannot be escaped, even virtually.
 
I take pride in my appearance and my body. I work, I go to the gym, and I play this game. Almost always in that order. So when I get called a "Big-Bertha" from someone admittedly it does hurt even though I'll act like it might not.
 
Overly sensitive? Yeah I think I just might be as ReRoLLeD can recall what happened just prior to me leaving KiLLeRxGirLz.
 
That being said, The Sims Online never portrayed the problems and issues I've come across in the vast world of Planetside. Perhaps it was because the player base was much smaller, but in reality the game is just seemingly more geared towards females and so it's not unbelievable to find a higher female to male ratio. That was a nice game with a comforting atmosphere. However it grew boring a bit too quickly.
 
Personally, the Tomb Raider seris was all about Lara and her huge tits. Perhaps not in the game, but everywhere outside of it. The reviews, the pictures, its market. This is why I said what I did about it. No I wouldn't want to play an ugly female led, but she doesn't need to have breast the size of watermeleons either. Personally, the new Tomb Raider Legend game seems like it would be the best because she's beautiful, deadly, and there isn't such an emphasis on a soft-core pixated porn star with her remake. Perhaps one day I'll actually buy myself a playstation and try it out. But as for the early ones when Edios was in charge, it didn't even cross my mind to try it out.
 
I can't answer why males will play females. The most common reason is what  you guys confirmed, "if I'm going to stare at..." but in a technology growing world new avatars of either gender (and beyond) are more commonplace and the fact that about 10% of the gaming population is female means that males might just have to compensate. After all, can you imagine Everquest or WoW with only a male avatar pressence? Playing the roles of the physically weaker Mages or Archers that used to be geared towards female avatars in older games are now being filled in by male players.
 
Whose to say a girl doesn't want to kick ass and take up a sword and be on the front lines with the boys though? Just look at the type of game Planetside is.
 
Sometimes it takes a woman
IP IP Logged
NakataH
Forum Whore
Forum Whore
Avatar

Joined: 17/June/2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1393
Quote NakataH Replybullet Posted: 17/September/2006 at 5:55am
i havent read the whole thread but from my experience alot of females in PS have chosen male avitars appart from the attention whoring ones on the forums (star anyone?)

i personally chose a female avitar because i always liked the look of the NC Female with CR5 however they went and ruined it with the colour changing

my TR is male and my NC Werner is also male

in WoW i picked a male untill i rerolled then i got practically forced to choose a female

ill mostly just choose which i think looks the best, not really bothered about the gender
IP IP Logged
Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bugs? Account issues? Please contact the forum administrator.

© Copyright 1CMM / Fayaz 2006 | Current Visitors: | Hits: 35432239